Insights from the Top | Law Firm Leadership: Tamara Box
David Teece speaks with Tamara Box, a partner and leading lawyer in the Structured Finance team of Reed Smith. They discuss topics including the importance of gender and racial diversity in corporate governance, the state of securitization in emerging markets, what ownership means for rising attorneys, and how the firm has remained strong for more than a century.
Transcript
[00:00:35] David Teece: Hello, my name is David Teece, and I'm executive chairman of the Berkeley Research Group and also a professor of the graduate school at the University of California, Berkeley. In this episode, I'll speak with Tamara Box of Reed Smith, which is a global law firm with a storied past and more than 1,500 lawyers spread throughout the US, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Tamara formally served as a managing partner for Europe and the Middle East and remains a leading lawyer in the Structured Finance team of the firm.
Today, we'll discuss the importance of gender and racial diversity in corporate governance, the state of securitization in emerging markets, and what ownership means for rising attorneys.
But before I begin with that, I want to just get a little background from Tamara about Reed Smith, because Reed Smith is a firm that's been around for 150 years, and there's not many firms—let alone law firms—that have been around for 150 years. I understand the company represented Andrew Carnegie at the beginning of the twentieth century, and now the firm has thirty offices worldwide.
Tamara, what has enabled Reed Smith over this century-and-a-half to remain strong? What are the common threads that you see that have enabled viability and enabled the company to prosper through thick and thin from the industrial age through to the digital age?
[00:02:02] Tamara Box: Sure. Thank you and nice to be here with you, David. I think it is a combination of things. It's a combination of culture, the leadership, the strategy of the business, the nature of the business. Reed Smith is very much a full-service firm, but in service of certain key industries. And those industries have evolved over time, but they've enabled us to have focus for how we serve clients. It's a single partnership around the world.
That's a pretty big deal in these days. And I think always having that sort of single-mindedness about who we are and who we serve, and also how we collaborate with each other, what we owe each other as partners over those years. So, not just a big merger that took it outside the US, but also multiple mergers in the US. All of which, you know, had to be integrated. And I think a lot of that integration was served by the strength of the culture, the strength of the nature, the collaboration, and the determination to remain a single partnership at the end of it all.
Frankly, all that integration in merger terms has also made us really good at bringing people into the business. All firms thrive because they're constantly refreshing their talent base, whether that's through graduate recruitment and hiring all the way through the chain or through lateral hiring. But to do lateral hiring, you need to make sure that those lateral hires come onboard. They thrive, they're successful. They're integrated. They become an integral part of the business. And I think we've had the advantage of making that a natural part of the evolution of the Reed Smith business as well.
[00:03:38] DT: Well, that's very interesting. To be honest, I wasn't aware that you're a single partnership. I understand you have thirty offices worldwide. So, achieving that domestically is one thing. Achieving it globally is quite another. So, hats off to you and the partnership for doing that.
But let me talk a little bit about what you touched on with respect to training up young lawyers. A company always has to renew itself. A partnership has to renew itself and probably renew itself in different ways. I've heard you say that young lawyers should own their own space and earn visibility in their own practice. How do you balance the building of the brand, the individual brand of the lawyer versus the brand of the company? And what does it really mean to own your own space?
[00:04:28] TB: I think the reality is that we need not only lawyers that work in a collaborative, team-oriented way, but also lawyers that have their own confidence in their skillset or subject-matter expertise to do that. It means they need to feel listened to when it comes to—what am I interested in? How do I want to contribute to the legal industry going forward? How do I gain expertise to do that?
We have to really help them cultivate that subject-matter expertise, but then they have to take responsibility for that. I'm a big believer in investing in it. If a firm says to a young lawyer—I don't think we can take you to that conference this year; there's no budget—you know, look, if it's an outrageous sum of money, a young lawyer may not be able to afford it. But if it's a few hundred dollars or pounds, and you think it's critical to your development, then invest in that. Own your own space, your own career, your own development, your own subject-matter expertise. You'll take that with you wherever you go. And so, I think when we encourage young lawyers to really take that ownership interest and responsibility, it pays us back as a business because they do then invest not only themselves, but also in their place in the business and how they support our teams and our clients going forward.
[00:05:46] DT: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more—getting individuals to invest in themselves and having a company create a culture that encourages that with some financial support. But talking about expertise—one of the areas that you, in particular, have focused on is structured finance. And I'm really impressed that you've done this for multiple client types across multiple geographies. You've even done Sharia finance, as I understand it, which has its own set of rules.
Tell us a little bit about that, and how you've been able to move fluidly across different legal jurisdictions with complex transactions. Is it because you've focused in one particular area, or have you developed skills across the board and across jurisdictions for almost all forms of securitization at this point?
[00:06:37] TB: It's probably a little more the latter than the former. I'm not sure anyone would call me particularly focused. I always say I have a low boredom threshold, so I like to do new things all the time and learn something new. Having said that, I think that curiosity is also what served me well in the context of being able to do first-time transactions in new jurisdictions.
I think there is a new-market mindset, and then there is a not so new-market mindset. A new-market mindset, to my mind, has that curiosity, that ability to accept things won't work the same way. They won't work the same way they did in the last jurisdiction you worked in. They won't work the same way in the jurisdiction that you trained in. And you have to accept your job is to go in with creative solutions.
I think a lot of what I've gotten to do in my career is move from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, often with really supportive clients who are doing the same thing because they've developed subject-matter or product expertise that they want to take on to a next jurisdiction and, you know, create another opportunity. I've gotten to do that with them because I feel like I love solving the problem. It's a reason to sit down with your—usually—local counsel. Also, a great opportunity to learn something about the law, the culture, the people, and figure out how to creatively solve this problem: how do we collaborate to get to an end result?
And again, I think I'm well served because, for me, the end result has always been the number one thing in my mind. I'm fascinated by the law. It's what I do. But that's not what my clients care about, right? My clients care about: how do I get to the objective of completing this transaction or getting that economic outcome? That's what we have to be focused on, and I must admit, I've always found that part fascinating.
[00:08:27] DT: And has that been easier to do from London than from Pittsburgh, just as an example?
[00:08:34] TB: “I don't know” is probably the right answer to say, because I started career in New York. I lucked out and ended up in Singapore for a few years before I got back to London, so I've seen a lot in a lot of different jurisdictions and had the opportunity to take that perspective right the way through. Is it easier from London? Sure. I suppose some of the jurisdictions I covered are easier to do, and you're more likely to be offered the opportunity from London. But equally there are some really exciting emerging markets that are probably more available to those sitting in the US. So, part of it's just wanting to do it.
[00:09:11] DT: Let me switch a little bit to diversity, equity, and inclusion, which I know you've been a champion of. You've been part of the 100 UK chairwoman aiming to double down on this. What do you think boards and the C-suites need to do to accomplish the goals that you're seeking, and how is that initiative moving along—inside your firm and in the broader society?
[00:09:36] TB: Yeah, sure. Gender balance is something I've long been a campaigner for and a major proponent of, in part because it is good for our business. If you're sitting in any business, you can't help but notice that it would be foolish to leave behind half your talent base. In the legal business, it's written large because we know women are—and continue to be—more than 50 percent of the graduates from law school. So, they are at least 50 percent of your talent base out there. That's really true in most sectors, but for the UK, for example, when you look at it, productivity is massively enhanced when we actually include and engage the full talent base.
Where are we? Short answer is a lot better than where we were. So, when I started with the 30% Club, which was founded back in 2011, we had something like 10 percent women on boards on the FTSE 100 here in the UK. We're now at roughly 40 percent, so it is definitely changing. There's still room to go though. That includes mostly non-execs, as opposed to the executive.
We still see a pipeline problem in most organizations, and I think we still have a lot of work to do to understand why that is, because we naively posited that if you got it right at the top, there would be a pull through that would naturally role model and give encouragement to those coming through the chain. In reality, I think it's a lot more complex than that, so we've got more work to do.
When I look at Reed Smith, it's one of the reasons I joined the firm, frankly. It was gender balanced in its senior management team; its executive committee had more than 40 percent women, plus a lot of other kinds of diversity that we cared a lot about. So, it's always been a firm that walked the walk, in my view. And I think that's critical.
If we look around today and ask why do we need to continue to care about this—other than the obvious—it's because the next generation really care about it. And if you aren't sure, sit in on an interview with any young person looking to join your firm. And it will be within the top three questions that they ask.
[00:11:44] DT: And to me, given that you're as global as you are—you're in the Middle East and Latin America and elsewhere—that must create some special issues that you have to deal with. And how do you work those issues as you're maintaining a common culture?
[00:12:01] TB: Yeah, that is something we probably talk enough about. Global organizations talking about diversity need to recognize that will look different in each of your different cultures and jurisdictions. Our folks in Hong Kong thought it was bizarre to ask about racial diversity, for example, when they're sitting in China, you know? So again, what does that mean? What is the majority, what does minority mean when you think about different jurisdictions? Often businesses—and particularly those in the US if I might—can be pretty ethnocentric about that and think their norms are everybody's norms.
Part of being in a global business is to accept that you meet people where they are, and you meet cultures where they are. It requires open-mindedness to listen to people. And I think it's also—again, maybe as a globalist, which I unapologetically am—the best part of all this. That's the part you get to learn every day, all the time. Hear others' perspectives, and understand what it means, what your difference is to theirs, and where our common ground is and joyfully where our common ground isn't, and therefore how we collaborate even more effectively because we come at things differently while we're together.
[00:13:14] DT: Well, I would encourage you to write up your thinking on that, because there's a big gap in the academic literature on exactly those issues. How do you actually implement this in practice across multiple jurisdictions with different values and different cultures? And it seems like you're in the wheelhouse to see that and do that.
But let me move on. And recognizing, of course, I'm talking about the US. The US Supreme Court's decision on affirmative action has implications in the US. I doubt it has implications beyond the US., but it might. So, tell me a little bit about how that is impacting the landscape and the everyday decisions that you have to make in a leadership role.
[00:13:53] TB: Look, the reality is, I think it does impact the landscape well beyond the US and the borders of the US, not least because so many businesses, like ours, are global. I think it's a little early to know exactly how it is going to impact us.
I'm a member of the advisory board for a group at the London School of Economics called the Inclusion Initiative. And the Inclusion Initiative had an event the other night. We were chatting about this very thing. It's almost made many leaders in global organizations double down on their determination to get the best people and the best out of their people, without regard to this inhibition that might flow from this decision. And by that, I mean, I think there is no bowing to that pressure. Because again, there's all kinds of activism out there, but if you know what's good for your business and you know it's the right thing for the strategy that you have and your vision, you do it. Regardless of whether you're getting activists or others telling you not to. And I think that's where it sounds to me like many leaders are landing.
We also concluded that one of the things that may be missing is a true open dialogue. Not angry, not two sides and never the twain shall meet, but true discussion of what are we really worried about? Is there some form of reverse discrimination? Where's the data? How do we actually use facts and statistics to get comfortable, not just with our anecdotes or our strong feelings, but really the state of the real world? Are those concerns real or not?
I think that's the really important part about leading in this very divisive, polarized moment in time. And I hope it's a moment in time. It's when the demand for open-mindedness and listening and care and empathy is at its highest.
[00:15:51] DT: Well, obviously a lot of complex issues there. And I'm glad that you're involved in it in a leadership way, not only within your firm but beyond.
But let me just, before we leave their global side, ask you about the longer-range strategy of Reed Smith: the regions you're in, where you see the expansion opportunities. Obviously, relations with China are not as they were. How does that affect—particularly the rise of China and tensions between China and Europe and the United States—how is that impacting your business? And where do you see the growth in the future?
[00:16:23] TB: Yeah, I think you start with, we are in all these places already. So, we've been in China for a very long time. We're in Singapore, and we're seeing some benefit to Singapore of changes in China and policy and feelings and all of those things.
We're in the Middle East and have been there for more than forty years, and that's not changing. And again, we're seeing some real excitement.
But wherever we are, it's because we follow clients there. And it's because we are there to make sure we're able to continue being their partners as they expand their businesses. So, I think that is the answer to where do you go next and what are you doing next? It's very much those industries we focus on, the clients we seek to serve in a full-service capacity. What do they need from us, and how do we make sure we have it? I think that is—and will continue to—have us expand in Singapore, for example, where we have really strong segments that are growing as we talk, frankly. But it's also taking us further into the Middle East. You know, we've long had the UAE as a hub. There is no question that Saudi [Arabia] is very exciting, and we don't have virtually any clients that aren't either in Saudi [Arabia] in a big way already or going.
But I think there are others. There's a lot going on as we look south of the US into Latin America.
So, it's always about those industry segments, those clients in those segments, and how do we make sure we do the right things by them. There are still places where we are not, but we are not there because we have fantastic, best-in-class service from friends that our clients also are happy with, and we've made that work as well. We're in France, Germany, Greece, in continental Europe, for example, but we're not in Italy and we're not in Spain. That doesn't mean we don't do work there. We do a lot, but we have great friends with whom we've developed good relationships, and we have clients that are happy with the way that works. So that's always the way that we're led into any new jurisdiction. I think it'd be the same with any new service line or business that we would think about.
[00:18:32] DT: I tend to agree with you that Saudi [Arabia] is really on a roll and likely to continue to do so, and that's become very exciting for many people over the last few years.
Let me just move ahead a little bit to discuss the impact of technology on your business and AI [artificial intelligence], whether or not you see any impact at present, whether you're monitoring this, whether there are issues there that are consuming you or just amusing you.
[00:19:03] TB: Certainly, all of the above. I think AI is exciting and frightening all at once, certainly generative AI. I am fascinated. I'm particularly fascinated with the potential that it has to make us infinitely better partners to our clients, to make our service infinitely faster, better, and cheaper. And there's no client out there that wouldn't ask for those three things.
So, I think there is a huge opportunity, but I also think it is frightening because it asks of us the thing that lawyers hate the most, which is to change. We really, really like to do what we've always done and expect to get what we've always gotten. And look, it's worked for us legitimately. We've managed over many, many years, hundreds really, to do pretty much the same thing in the same way. We’ve grown, we've shrunk, we've grown, those sorts of things.
But I think generative AI, and I would also posit, Gen Z, as a component of this, ask of us some pretty big changes. And those changes are frightening. And they are scary. And they are going to demand that we rethink the billable-hour model. We rethink exactly how we train lawyers to be lawyers. We rethink what it means to be a senior lawyer, for example.
How do we rethink all of those things and, frankly, do so while we're flying the plane, because we're all still flying the plane? I think those are really key issues, particularly for law firm leaders, but they're also key issues for every leader. Generative AI, in particular, offers us ways to really deliver on some of the things that Gen Z expect from us. If we're going to have the kind of talent we want going forward, then there's really good news in all that. But it is going to take brave leaders in all of our firms to really learn how and, frankly, be honest with how this is going to change our business.
[00:21:11] DT: Tamara, let me end with a question that I usually ask people, which is: What's the toughest lesson you have learned over the last five years? And what's the biggest challenge that you see for yourself personally looking forward three to five years?
[00:21:27] TB: That there really is nothing we can't handle. And I look back at the first early days of our lockdown in the pandemic. If you had asked any lawyer in any law firm: Can we, within one week, have 98 percent of not just our lawyers but our firm working virtually? Being productive, doing what we would expect them to otherwise do, within one week? There's no chance we would have said that could happen.
I think what I suppose I took away from all this is that change is possible. Now apply that to things like generative AI, and that's why I'm optimistic. It's possible. Now, it maybe has to be forced on us, which is certainly what happened with the pandemic, but it is possible, and we will rise to the challenge because we actually do have remarkably smart, clever, talented, exciting people in our business. So that's my big takeaway.
In terms of the next three years—I think they hold a lot of uncertainty. And so, I guess the other takeaway is you want to be successful in any business thing, but I think—particularly in professional services—it's learn how to love uncertainty. You know, really just embrace it. And accept that the more adaptive and resilient and innovative and creative you are, the more likely you are to not only survive but thrive.
[00:22:49] DT: Well, Tamara, that was an excellent interview. And if I can just pick up on your very last comment, of course, my own scholarship has been about managing under uncertainty, and I have this framework called dynamic capabilities. You seem to have a good quotient of it yourself—and Reed Smith. So good luck for the future, and I'll look forward to coming back in two or three years and just seeing how you've exercised your dynamic capabilities to thrive and prosper in the uncertain world that we're in. So, thank you so much.
[00:23:19] TB: Thank you, David. Really great to be with you, thank you.